=====================================================================
TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
=====================================================================
TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

DAY 2 - 23 APRIL 1996



CASE NO:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;CT/00712&#9;&#9;

VICTIM:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;FUZILE PETROS JUQU [son]

VIOLATION:&#9;&#9;&#9;KILLING 

TESTIMONIES FROM:&#9;NODWZAKAZI &#9;JUQU [mother]

&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;MR JUQU



NODWZAKAZI ELEANOR JUQU:&#9;Duly sworn states



CHAIRPERSON:

We know that this is going to be very difficult for you and its going to bring back sad memories. But we hope that by talking about the past you are going to be healed inside. Thank you for coming. The lawyer Mr Ntsebeza is going to help you while you are trying to tell us your story.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Mr Chairman this is a story also about the killing of a young person. Fuzile Petros Juqu was 15 years when he was shot by the police in 1985. It is a sad history of this country which seems to have been engulfed in State sponsored violence from 1976.

&#9;Unfortunately until this day, but more particularly for the period for which your Commission sits to hear evidence of atrocities. This particular incident took place in February of 1985. And we have Ms Nondwzaki Eleanor Juqu and her husband to tell you and your Commission and the people here how it felt for them to loose a son in the early stages of his life. Ms Juqu I am going to talk to you in Xhosa. 

MS JUQU:

Should I start by stating myself the name - my name.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Yes mamma, mamma I am going to lead you, I am going to ask you so that you dont have to be worried while you sitting there. Ill help you out, just relax - relax because we understand that this is going to be very difficult for you. But just relax.

&#9;Your wound is ours too, could you tell us who you are, where were you born, where did you meet your husband, how many children do you have. Explain to us everything that you know about Fuzile and everything that happened on that day that you saw him last. Well go back again to the details, but now, your turn.

MS JUQU:

My name is Nondwzaki Juqu, I come from the [indistinct] I was born here in Retreat. I got married here to my husband, we are therefore now citizens of this - of South Africa in Cape Town, Fuzile is my son.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

How many kids do you have?

MS JUQU:

I had six children, and the last ones were twins so that means they are all eight in total. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Was Fuzile one of your sons?

MS JUQU:

He was one of four sons. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

In other words how many sons did you have?

MS JUQU:

I had four sons and four daughters.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

And now you are left with four sons?

MS JUQU:

I am left with three sons and four daughters.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Are you both working you and your husband?

MS JUQU:

Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

If I understand you - you work both at Groote Schuur?

MS JUQU:

Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

You wake up from the same bed and you work at the same place.

MS JUQU:

Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Its looks like nobody can just deviate in this routine. Mamma please go back to this sad story that we have in front of us. At the time when Fuzile left did some people call him or he just left on his own?

MS JUQU:

He just left.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

He went to school at X-3 at that time, though it is not called X-3 anymore. It was a school that has now been renamed end of Tape 10, side A 

MS JUQU:

He loved me very much. I knew that everyday when I come from work he was going to meet me halfway to meet me from work. This day I was also from work as usual, it was after four. I stayed at home up to after five. I was just asking the other kids where is Fuzile he is suppose to be among you, my children said no we dont know where he is. We dont know why he is not back yet. We heard from mothers of New Cross that there is a toi-toi at New Cross, at Crossroads and Fuzile is one of those. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Sorry mamma, now please slow down, you can just go on but dont be so fast so that we can be able to interpret what you saying. Going back now some mothers from Crossroads came and told you that there is the toi-toi at Crossroads.

MS JUQU:

Yes this toi-toi was at Crossroads and my son and others were taken out of the school to join the toi-toi at Crossroads. Now I asked why is it still this time that he is not yet back from this toi-toi and I didnt like this at all. When I asked his friends havent you seen Fuzile at all, now its getting late and I havent seen Fuzile at all, one of them said Fuzile has been shot.

&#9;I said so if he has been shot where is he its now getting very late, but nobody knew anything. But now I can see that these kids didnt want to tell me the full story because they didnt want to be witnesses. And when my husband came back he also asked where is the child, what should we do. Lets phone - lets call the hospital, we should start now searching for him and now it was already 9 pm.

&#9;We called Groote Schuur, Tygerberg Hospital and Conradie, nobody knew - nobody knew him. Now we couldnt sleep now, this was the first time that he wasnt at home at night. We ended up sleeping even though it was hard to. We got up very early in the morning, I said to my husband I wont be able to go to work today when I dont know where my son is, you can go on and go to work, maybe you will know what happened, youll get somebody to tell you something.

&#9;I woke up and I just left my house, I was so confused I didnt even know where I was going.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Where were you going?

MS JUQU:

I am going to the direction where they said my son was. Somebody who saw them said there were coming from the graveyard.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

And where are this grave - where is this graveyard.

MS JUQU:

This graveyard is in NY5. Around five - around 6 pm I am not sure whether - I was just shouting for his name Fuzile - Fuzile. Nobody was answering me, I was thinking maybe I should just go home. When I got back home, my other kids were awake already, they asked me mamma did you hear anything about Fuzile.

&#9;I said no, I didnt get any direction at all. By that time my husband was already gone, he went to the hospital to find out what happened. Because as I understand this, as he is working in the hospital, there were riots that time. Injured people were coming in - in the hospital, we didnt think that our children would be part of these.

&#9;Now during the time when our kids now were coming in, my husband went to the hospital and he didnt - he didnt find him. It was now on the second day now, he still couldnt find him. I wanted to tell everybody what happened but I couldnt tell anyone because I didnt know. Now my husband said he went to the mortuary and that is where he saw him, he was already dead. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Your husband will tell us what happened.

MS JUQU:

No I havent finished.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Okay you can go on.

MS JUQU:

When my husband came back with my sons clothes, when I saw his shirt, I have never seen a shirt like that with so many holes as if rats were eating on it. I just had to burn it because I couldnt look at it for too long, it was really going to affect me mentally. I told my husband that we have to burn this shirt because its not a pretty sight. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Do you remember Sipho.

MS JUQU:

When Sipho came in - in the house, Sipho is one of our friends. He said to me mamma you know I saw these kids when they were being chased by Barnard and Panic he was chasing them through - to a far away place. I didnt really think that one of your kids was one of these. These kids were shot in the graveyard.

&#9;Certain people picked them up and they took them to the hospital because this bullets just shot at them and left them. And there were people looking at this. So they followed and they went to that scene and picked - and picked up all these shot people and took them to the hospital. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

What did Sipho say, did he say Barnard and Panic were - were chasing at these kids.

MS JUQU:

Yes, Barnard and Panic are policemen, they were together.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Was it Barnard who was going around Guguletu - patrolling at Guguletu?

MS JUQU:

Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

You heard the story, the 1976 story that we were talking about and others, did you hear the Guguletu story?

MS JUQU:

Yes I did.



ADV NTSEBEZA:

Did you hear that Barnard - they were also complaining about Barnard there.

MS JUQU:

Yes I did.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Do you believe that Barnard is one of the policemen who are involved in this.

MS JUQU:

Yes I do.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Now so you say your husband is the one who actually saw your son in the mortuary.

MS JUQU:

Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

You dont know who took your son to the hospital?

MS JUQU:

No I dont know.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Did you go to any Court where it was explained how your son died, were you called as the parents of this - of this young man, where you told about the Court date?

MS JUQU:

No - nobody called me, I never went to any Court.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Even your husband?

MS JUQU:

I dont know now why - how he went to [indistinct] but I dont know if he was called or not, he will tell you himself.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

If there was anything that the Commission can do, what would you ask it to be, seeing that you were put in this problem by Barnard.

MS JUQU:

What would I say?

ADV NTSEBEZA:

What is your wish that we as the Commission can do for you, what is your wish?

MS JUQU:

My wish is that I would like to back to my sons grave and have a tombstone on my sons grave and I believe he would be somebody today. At that time he was - when he was 15 when he was shot he was doing std 7. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Thank you.



CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you mamma. Dadda you also have to be sworn in. I am asking you.



MR JUQU&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;Duly sworn states



CHAIRPERSON:

I had already welcomed you, I mean now that this is all going to hurt you a lot especially the way that we are doing, the way we are asking you this questions. But we hop that this opportunity for you to express yourself to get all these out of your chest is going to heal you. Mr Dumisa Ntsebeza is going to help you along with the story.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Good afternoon dadda.

MR JUQU:

Good afternoon.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Well we have already heard the story from your wife, we have already heard the story from both of you. We comment this, to see the two of you hand in hand like this. That we dont really want to take you back and make you sad all over again, and listen - listen to your stories and make the whole world to know about your stories through radios and TVs.

&#9;But we are doing this because we believe that if - if people repeat again all they are heard, that they heard at the beginning they get healed as they repeat the stories again. I am going to ask you a few short questions, but now dadda this is going to - this is going to revive your hurt and sad feelings now.

&#9;Mamma said when she realised that Fuzile doesnt come back, she asked you to call the hospitals is that so? 

MR JUQU:

Yes it is.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

It looked like all those hospitals that you called then knew nothing about him.

MR JUQU:

Yes thats true.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

The following day, Ms Juqu asked you please go personally to the hospitals to find him, is that so?

MR JUQU:

Yes it is.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Which was - which hospital was the first one you went to.

MR JUQU:

I started at Tygerberg. I went through all the wards but I couldnt find him there, I came back. I told myself - my wife that I couldnt find him. So I went to Salt River there I went to [indistinct] to the police station, I asked them - they said no, they dont know anything. They said no youre wasting our time, they said just go and sit over there, when I got to the police station I was told that my son is in mortuary. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

When you told this police that you - you are looking for your son, this policeman said to you, you are wasting our - you are wasting our time?

MR JUQU:

Yes - yes he said thats what he said, yes I am wasting his time. I saw him actually he was lying on his stomach, his whole back was full of bullet holes. This policeman was a white man I dont even know his name. I didnt even want to know his name because I was already hateful towards him.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

What you saw was he inside a drawer?

MR JUQU:

No he was on a stretcher. I saw that he had bullet wounds all over his back.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

When you identified him, was he already dead?

MR JUQU:

Yes, they just told me that here he is, what do you think I should do.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

How did you feel during that moment when he said that?

MR JUQU:

If I had anything in front - in front of me or anything - any - any stick or any - any arm at all I will just throw it at him because my son was just lying there dead.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

What did you do that day?

MR JUQU:

His clothes were put aside in a bundle, I just took that bundle and I went home and I told everybody at home that my son is in mortuary.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Is this now - this bundle that your wife is referring to when he is talking about it looked like it was eaten by mice.

MR JUQU:

The whole bundle looked like it was eaten by mouse - mice and it was full of blood. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Obviously it wasnt one bullet.

MR JUQU:

Oh! yes there were many-many bullets, he had blood coming out of his nose. He was - he was just shot at the back by very many-many bullets.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Were you called in to any Court maybe in Wynberg?

MR JUQU:

Yes sir, I was called at Wynberg, but I cant remember whether I was called by a letter or anything but I went to Wynberg. When I got there I cant remember whether it was a Magistrate or anyone, I dont know who usually sits in Court, I dont know the proceedings in Courts. I dont know who those people are.

&#9;They asked me is this your son, I said yes he is, he said ja he is dead. So I said so what should I do. He said oh! we very sorry, so I said what are you sorry about. At that time I was already confused but I told myself no, let me just stand here and listen and this Magistrate said okay, there is nothing we can do. So I just turned around and I left. I didnt give a damm what he was thinking about me and I simply left. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Do you know who can be blamed for this?

MR JUQU:

No they just told me that they are sorry that my son has been shot, there is nothing then they can do. I said oh! is that what you say, they said yes thats what we say, so I just turned around and left.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

The reports that we got, state that there was a policeman called Lieutenant Oosthuizen, who says there was a large crowd of - of people called now this crowd was estimated at 400 people. There were four bullets fired at them and they - and they responded by throwing back stones. Then later - later this Oosthuizen found out that here is Fuzile. He saw that there are these bullet wounds at the back on his back even at the back of his head.

MR JUQU:

Thats what he said there, no but what he doesnt say is when these people were throwing stones at them, and throwing petrol bombs, what did they do.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Did you ever hear this report.

MR JUQU:

This is the first time I am hearing this report, Ive never even heard it in any history, this is the very first time I am hearing this. I dont even know where they wrote this statement.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you anyone else with questions? 

MS SOOKA:

Sir this is a very difficult question that I am going to ask you now, I am going to ask you in English. I think we cannot even miss the pain and the sorrow because it is reflected in your face. There is the question of whether you might want to meet the people or the person who killed your son. What - what is your thinking about that?

MR JUQU:

Ja I hear you, but now what will they do when I meet them because my son is already dead, even now - even the fact that I came here, I didnt want to come here to this Commission because I was - I got very hurt. Now this makes me mad really, now if I meet these people what am I going to do with them?

&#9;My son was shot and nobody told me that my son is in the mortuary now what should I do to these people, what are they going to do. Is the boers who did this.

MS SOOKA:

[indistinct] what can the Commission do to help?

MR JUQU:

Maam I am not here to get any compensation, I am just - I feel very hurtful for my shot son, is the Commission that will see what it can do, but I am not here to tell the Commission what to do, I am not here to gain anything about that. I just feel very sore inside, my heart is broken. There is nothing else I am going to say now.

MS SOOKA:

Thank you sir.

MS BURTON:

Thank you your grace, I would like to ask Mr and Ms Juqu if they have grandchildren.

MR JUQU:

Yes I do have grandchildren.

MS BURTON

[indistinct]

MR JUQU:

One is three years old, one is two and a half.

MS BURTON

The reason that I ask that is because when our children are 15 in a normal society when they are not at home when they should be at home you think ahh theyre out with a girlfriend or they having a party or they at their friends house.

&#9; In those years in the 70s and the 80s it was a very abnormal society when your children were late home you knew right away that there was a real problem. And you knew the places you had to go looking for them. One of the things that we hope for in the future is that we can create the kind of society where when your 15 year old children come home late you know why it is, they are with friends and now in danger.

&#9;And maybe thats one of the things that the TRC can help to do, is to create that better society for our grandchildren. Thank you.

MR JUQU:

I understand when the Commission tries to do something I am not against anything. But it is acceptable that if something has happened that somebody can come to me and tell me what happened. Not like - not that I should be just asked to go to Court and now I am being brought here and now I - I must get hurt all over again now. 

CHAIRPERSON:

Sir and you madam we know we cannot - we can never say we are Gods we cannot even say that you - we can - we can make things right again for you. We are all people and we come from this apartheid and its heartships.

&#9;As you have said that the operation has put you into heartship, and we can - we also can never forget what happened in our country. We would like it to change as Ms Burton has said in our country if - if a teenager hasnt come home at a time when you said he must come in, we wouldnt like to go to hospitals and prisons and mortuaries.

&#9;We would just say now - we would prefer to say now my child has just went away with his friends. For us to be able to reach that stage, it is because of people like you, people who had come forward. People who were victims, it is those people who are - who have made us to be here today.

&#9;We would like co-operation between whites and blacks so that in this new South Africa there should never be a day again where all these things that happened in the past should happen again. We wouldnt like a time to come when a father and a mother to come again in a - to something like this Commission only to tell us that I found my sons shirt torn by bullets as if it was eaten by rats. We thank you for coming up here. 

